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INTERVIEWEE* Name: Virendra Kapoor

  • Occupation: Journalist

INTERVIEWER* Kai Friese (Kai)

Medium: Video + Audio recordings* Format: Audio .wav

  • Language: English with smatterings in Hindi
  • Location of Interview: Residence, Nizamuddin East
  • Date of the interview: 18 February 2016 12:46:04

Clip name/DURATION: * kf_VKapur_raw.WAV

  • Length 00: 49: 44
  • Bit rate: 1411kbps
  • Size: 307 MB
  • Date modified: 18/02/2016

Interview Start

Keywords/ Phrases
0:00 [Kai] Interview with Virendra Kapoor on 18 February 2016 in Nizamuddin. Mr Kapoor you could also begin to tell me a little about where you came from and how you began as a journalist.

0:20 [VK] We come back...we come from East Punjab but and, you know, the family owned some churning mill, the (Note: unclear word), my father's an engineer so he found himself a job here so that we could ...East Punjab obviously didn't have very many educational facilities there as against the West Punjab which went to Pakistan. So we came here in Delhi. I did my B.A. (Hons) in Pol. (Political) Science and M.A. in Political Science. But all along I was interested in politics. And somehow I was drawn to, you know, anti-...that time anti-establishment went only anti-Congress politics.1:08 So the fresh from college, this new paper was starting and I went in and met the editor and asked for a job. As in those days there were no... [Kai interjects]

1:20 [Kai] This was which year '73?

1:21 [VK] This is '71...'71. So he said, 'go back...learn typing.' I said, 'you don't have to hire me. I'll learn typing on the job which....' Then he said, 'if we liked' ... it was a new paper...and there were not very many, you know, aspirants for jobs those days especially (for) a paper associated with Jan Sangh Party because of the appeal of Mrs Gandhi. You know, it took some daring to work for a paper which was totally was styled to ...Jan Sangh was a small ------ 1:56 [Kai: Had you been active in Jan Sangh?] ------ 1:58 No no I was not...I was not. I was certainly not. But I did identify myself with anybody who was against.....  ----- 2:04 [Kai adds: the Congress] --- 2:05 ...the Congress or rather Congress meant Indira Gandhi in those days. And I do think that by and large in the student community anti-Congress...anti-Indira Gandhi Movement was very strong because of the kind of things she had done.  2:24....the split up, the Congress, the way she split it , bad managed, the opportunistic cynical politics that she followed. I mean she she totally divorced it from all sense of scruples and morals, especially after '69. In any case...that was that and in '74 I ...I because of whatever I was doing and half the time you were noticed in Motherland because other papers, afraid of the powers that-be, we won't duck those stories. 

2:57 [Kai] So what kind of stories were you working on?

3:00 [VK] I was doing....essentially, you know, as a cub reporter you work on a crime beat and which I did.  And I know I remember scooping out such stories...Nagarwala, the  (Note: unclear word) Nagarwala Case if you're familiar because you wrote something which got noticed  or in fact story that I ...that got me the job ...I mean I got a phone call from a new paper Financial Exp...Indian Express...financial paper was this murder of, you know, the well-known Delhite, high society eye surgeon Vidya...no...Dr N. S. Jain (Note: Reference is to murder of Vidya Jain, 45 by her husband, Narendra Singh Jain in 1973). --- 3:34 [Kai: of course of course...in CP…who had his shop in CP.] ---- Yeah Vidya Jain. So and because for seven-ten days the entire city was awed....especially that you know Page 3 Circle in those was noticed. 'Who's killed Vidya Jain?' It turned out her own husband was a party because he wanted to marry the mistress anyway. So this is what I scooped and since this paper was starting, they were looking for someone to cover the Delhi beat. That's why I got into Financial Express. And while in fact one lasting good miles my three years stint at Financial Express was I got interested in economics, you know, financial journalism. And I and now I think that made me a complete journalist otherwise [I was] totally obsessed with covering politics and everything political.4:24 And then Coomi had already come in and joined the Indian Express. And we (were) working under the same roof. I think I think '74 we got married. And the fact that her brother-in-law was a Jan Sangha leader, Subramanian Swamy, and since we happened to be at least I subscribed to their anti-Congressism, you know. And I'm not saying that I was political but I was totally anti-Congress in the sense that Mrs Gandhi...thank to Mrs Gandhi...5:01 and then came the Emergency, you know. And I didn’t know any fear at that time. And I couldn't be bothered if they arrested me or they ....but I spoke my mind, which I still continue to do, even in the profession whether as an editor or a reporter I speak the way it is, 5:21 so it helps ..that it branded me that he (is) difficult to get along ---- [Kai interjects: accommodate]--- because he doesn't listen to, you know, things that all editors have to put up with like play-down a story or kill it or 5:42 same answers. But a long story short about my own career. I had a dubious distinction of being sacked by two geniuses in journalism- one is a Prabhu Chawala and another is Arun Shourie (AS is the correct name), because I wouldn't take their nonsense. 

5:58 [Kai]And where was this?

5:59 [VK] Indian Express ...When I went to Bombay as Free Press (Read Free Press Journal, Bombay) General-Editor. I was very happy there. I still write their articles. I am happy there because nobody tells me what to do or what not to do. I write very freely ... I call a spade a spade. And I mean, but at Express, Shourie because Shourie had his own little games to play and Shourie but contrary to his image Shourie is a very difficult man. And you know, has lot of prejudices, which I won't put up 6:38 But in case of Prabhu, Prabhu is a dumb. Prabhu Chawala (Note: Lot of banging in the background) Prabhu is illiterate...doesn't have anything 

Background of VK

-from East Punjab

-partition affecting the scope of education in East and west Punjab.

-father’s background.

-move to Delhi.

-VK’s education.

-Start at Motherland—interview- 1971.

-problems faced by a paper associated with Jan Sangh Party (JSP)---Mrs Indira Gandhi-

--- VK not active member of JSP

-Congress was equated with Mrs Gandhi

-Reasons for criticism of Mrs Gandhi---large student community against her.

Mrs Gandhi splitting the Congress post-1969

-Nature of VK’s work

----crime beat----cases like--nagarwala ----- murder scandal of Vidya Jain by her husband, a famous eye surgeon- got job offer from Indian Express.

--Job into Financial Express expansion of VK’s interest in economics

-marriage to Comi in ’74.

-Commonality with Subramanian Swamy over anti-Congressism----Beginning of Emergency

--VK being fearless & gaining a reputation of stating his mind and not buckling under pressure to change tone.

-being sacked by Prabhu Chawala and Arun Shourie

Joining Free Press Journal.

Arun Shourie…a difficult man

Prabhu Chawla…a dumb person

6:48 [Kai] So what was his virtue? (Kai and VK speak simultaneously) What is the secret of his career?

6:51 [VK] Fixer!....A fixer...So… So again it was difficult to. Since the 1990 now what...twenty-five years I've been freelancing and that was the worst point. And, you know, media has mushroomed so much...media outlets. So as long as there are people who publish me, I'm very happy. 7:13 Here you're a master of your own time...you write what you want. You’re not obliged to follow anybody's instructions. And there is a place for freelancers now in Indian journalism which was not the case earlier. 7:28 ----[Kai: it used to be terribly difficult] ----7:30 And and the growth of regional media or the language media, it's so much that you write one column obviously my language is English, and they get translated (Note: Kai probably makes a similar point but his voice is drowned out by VK's) in Gujarati, Gujarati, Punjabi, Gurmukhi, you know Hindi, so Telegu. So the, you know, keeps your body and soul together...so that's no problem. I mean unless you're Shekhar Gupta and you want to write your own salary check, crore a month or 1 plus 50 lakhs in expenses then of course you look for something else otherwise what's the problem. So that says all about my journalism...

8:16 [Kai interjects] But do you...to cut back to the Emergency and what happened to what happened to media...

8:23 [VK] Media....what happened to media can be summed up in just one very unforgettable sentence of ...by L. K. Advani ---[Kai also says Advani's in the background] 'When asked to bend, they started crawling.' And crawl they did. 

8:42 [Kai] Well ...again...but it......as a general rule but because they're also publications and individuals who were celebrated for standing up-- the Express and the Statesman most obviously? But do you think that somebody....[VK drowns out Kais voice after somebody]

8:59 [VK] They were ...they were.. they were the black sheep. They were lots of black sheep both in Statesman and Express. There were lots of black sheep. But becau...but there also ...don't forget that Express stood up, or Statesman stood up because the owner stood-up.

 9:19 [Kai agrees] Because of the top...because of Irani..[CR Irani of the Statesman]

9:21 [VK] Irani and Ramnath Goenkar...otherwise they would have all crumbled. So it's not that the journalists stood up. Journals...journalists were ready to ...but in any case stabbing each other...I know of a lots of journalists who were my friends before Emergency. During the time of day because 9:45 [Kai interjects: they were scared] ---9:46 they were scared. And you were scared that the bastards are writing on you is an informer to the police even in your own office. 9:53 It's there in the Memoir ---- [Kai: Yea, I know] --- So I think that's that's that's says a lot about the Indian character. It’s not in us to stand up to authority. 10:09 I mean pardon my digressing into another side issue....contrary to the myth the British were not driven out the freedom movement. There were other reasons. They could have ruled for another two hundred years. This is the truth.10:29 But we glorify our freedom fighters and all...they were handful of them. I mean look at the numbers...sheer numbers and how many stood up. And every time whether it's 1857 or subsequent. They were always Quislings ...they were willing to....

10:48 [Kai] Par woh toh har jagah hota hai

10:50 [VK] No no ...we didn't fight ...we didn't fight.  We didn't fight in Emergency, we didn't fight, you know, previously. And as far as, when I say about character...don't forget in the Emergency the point that needs to be noted in fact...I mean it's what the historians, sociologists work it out ...Indira Gandhi could have continued with the Emergency for another two hundred years.

11:20 [Kai] Yeah...many people have said that Sanjay Gandhi said as much.

11:23 [VK] No! That's a fact. And the results of the '77 show it that we are not unconcerned unless my own house is under attack I'm not bothered if my neighbour's house is being burnt down. Don't forget that we, even today, will say that South is far more literate than the north Bihari and you know the UP walas. Okay? Where did she get 150 seats? ---From the South! Why?

11:51 [Kai]  Well, the impression is that the South didn't suffer as much

11:54 That's exactly...that's my point. Thank you ...that's my point. That do you have to suffer...that only when I kidnap your son you'll react against the local dada? My son is being kidnapped but you're not bothered! This is the point I make. We don't fight. We don't have that...I mean the aggravation....the mere fact that she had snuffed out the rights of every citizen...made them serfs...should have affected everybody across the board. 12:24 Why should there be only a handful of RSS guys or Jan Sangh guys or, you know ten socialists? That's the point I make. Her getting 150 seats is a slap on the Indian character. And subsequently her return is a bigger slap. She got away.

--Prabhu and Arun all about image.

---VK freelancing since 1990.

--VK happy being freelancer due to mushrooming of media outlets.

-Impact of regional media and language media on freelance and journalists.

Work translated into other languages

-- Shekhar Gupta

--About Emergency

L.K. Advani’s quote

---Role of Express and Statesman in standing up.

--VK’s point that these two newspapers stood up because of the owners and not on their own free will.

--- people snitching to the police and scared.

VK’s views on Indian character---not to fight or stand up to authority.

British not driven out by freedom movement

Indians being Quislings

---people didn’t fight Emergency

--Emergency could have been extended for another 200yrs.

--Sanjay Gandhi

---About elections of 1977 result

--South being the bastion of Mrs Gandhi. South being more literate than Bihar

VK on apathy of others and the audacity of Mrs Gandhi without meeting concrete resistance ----snubbing rights

---Only RSS and Jan Sangh people standing up against.

12:48 [Kai] Slap also goes to the Janta Government?

12:51 [VK] People only...No Janta Government...yes...but get anybody else...somebody else... . And I can speak hours on end the Janta Government and the two year limited period did far better than any government. But the problem was the image. You had ambitious Charan Singh, Raj Narayan and things like this. The record of Janta Government in inflation...the inflation was under control, the growth was picking up...the only thing was that 13:23 Jagjivan Ram and Charan Singh who had dug up the scheme.

13:25 [Kai] Were all desperate to.... (incomplete sentence)

13:26 [VK] That's the point. The overall image was that these guys keep on fighting...that's the problem. It's not that Mor…. Morarji Desai was a good administrator.... known to be good administrator but he was not allowed to be...somebody's tugging  at his shirt...right and left, you know, he became a victim of the… his own colleagues but even then in a such country as ours ...as ours to limit it to one leader...to one family speaks volumes for you. 13:56 Any ways subsequently everybody is brought forward, it's not any...

13:59 [Kai] But do you feel that the Emergency left a lasting scar on on on journalism? Uhmmm.

14:09 [VK] I don't think so . ----[Kai: No? People think that from your journalism…..] -- I don't think so. The right question would be  - 'Do you think any lessons have been learnt by journalists from it...from Emergency?'14:17 [VK] That I would say yes and no. Yes because technology has developed...communication's technology has moved so much that maybe it'll be difficult now to enforce that kind of....but maybe because those who wanting to impose Emergency today let's say they'll also would have got better of whatever latest technology because those days  it was difficult (a) you only had landlines, very few landlines ----- [Kai: Yeah...Just a few channels too ]---- Yeah! (b) Run though only by one Doordarshan 14:52  And that's why in every day you'd look forward to morning and evening bulletin in secret and information in all resonated to  15:02  real other (Note: it sounds like ‘real other’…mumbled words) It's crucial, you know, to lead or mislead people. So to that extent that kind of Emergency may not be possible today.

15:15 [Kai] Oh! By the same token do you think that owners and maliks learnt a lesson that it is quite simple to control journalists and editors because that did happen?

15:29 [VK] N...the economic interest will always prevent whether it is a '75 or 2016, the sethjis only concerned about ---- [Kai: Seems more marked now would you not say] ----about financial ---- [Kai: Haan that the corporates are ]---- not ...not really. I'm sure that even amongst the present owners somebody stand up stand-up, you know, to the authoritarian leadership, should they get authoritarian. But now 16:00 since then and all the politics has polarised so much , in fact the, you know, it will be difficult because earlier you just had one party...dominant party. That dominance is not there. So even BJP and Congress are essentially regional parties. Congress is a regional party so is BJP.16:20 There are huge parts where---[Kai: Yeah yeah...they have no space] 16:25 So that is the case. The dominance of the Congress allowed it to rule unchallenged for those nineteen months. And the result was because there was no alternative on the horizon, you saw bureaucrats and cops. Today the bureaucracy will not probably feel you know as oppressed as helpless which was the case in '75. Where do I go if my minister is telling me to go and kill Virendra Kapoor? He had no other go (NOTE: 'go' not sure if that's the right word...but can be read as 'no other choice or option given the tone of the sentence16:58 But today he'll say, Sir!" ...because he has recourse to ...so to that extent, I think, India has moved on...India's moved on. But authoritarianism can take many new forms.

---VK on Janta Government and getting better results.

--Failure of the Janta Government due to in-fighting

For example , Jagjivan Ram and Charan Singh

Morarji Desai

---Effects of Emergency on Journalism --- VK (none) But

Did the journalists learn anything?

Yes and No ---Evolution of technology and communication technology- would make re-implementation of Emergency difficult.

Doordarsan the only channel

----For Emergency to be effective media had to fool people

Owners controlling the journalists easily.

---financial interests of the owners affecting reportage

Nature of Congress and BJP- both regional parties

More options for recourse now

17:13 [Kai] Speaking of this can you tell...talk a little bit about your jail experience?

17:18  [VK] What about?

17:20 [Kai] Well! I mean partly the grain of day-to-day life and... [VK interrupts]

17:25 [VK] I I I would say one point I keep on stressing in fact there's this sentence I get sick of mouthing all the time- 'if they honestly implemented the jail manual which I think goes back to the 1930s or maybe earlier by the British I think half of India would like to live in jail!' because everything is provided there...nutritional diet is provided. If you're a vegetarian ...you'll get this...if you're non-veg...how many eggs? Hair oil, soap, clothes all this is provided 18:07 [Kai interjects: on paper.] ----Not on paper----[Kai: I mean in the book!] ---- [VK] The jailman provides the stuff to the inmates...the government...in the jail they use the term depending on the population in the jail. So the firewood 18:19 because there are no gas stoves...firewood for cooking chapattis and cooking your daal-subji. All this is provided. 18:27 But you experience first-hand the corruption there. Emergency probably the jails were far more corruption (Read as: corrupt) than any time before or after because there was no recourse. We used to get those chapattis (muffled spot) which were...even if you had one centimetre circumference which was cooked, because the bastard 18:50 right in the beginning instead of getting three quintals of let's say firewood ...will get only one quintal. So what do we do? In that you can imagine how much can you cook! Because two quintals go into the pockets of the jail authorities.

19:07 [Kai] You just get kaccha chapatti?

19:08 [VK] Kaccha nahi...Kaccha is not the word ...Kaccha you'll do. And then I'm telling you that we are a little better off of because of political prisoners. So we we were given hardly ten minutes to work in the kitchen for us. Well they were happy working in our kitchen because they'll at least get some better food. But now they'll bring in a bucket...steel bucket...there was no plastic in those days. Jese ay aloo ka subji hai...and the bucket will be three-quarters full ..the level, and you put this (NOTE: possibly enacted so it's not clear what 'this' is.)  But if you swam into that bloody thing you'll not find one aloo! It's all what you call dirty dish water. 19:56 Yeh aloo ka sabji...kahan aloo kahan hai? You used to see that in..the point being they were stealing. And this this across the board because I was in jail in Tihar this was supposed to be the heart of the Central Government...seat of the Central Government and right-hand of their eyes than in Nanital..no no Bareilly Jail...things were the same. 20:19 Maybe they're a little worse there. So the corruption in jail...My god.

20:27 [Kai] Were there other journalists with you or activists only?

20:30 [VK] No, I didn't have any journalists. No I didn't have any journalists. But..no no there were no journalists...no. I had lots of politicians but...some of them are now very prominent but this now that JNU is in the news, the D.P. Tripathi was the President of the (NOTE: read as President of the JNU Students' Union)...he was with me, who, you know, now that member of the Sharad Pawar Party United Sabha. But... I mean ...I don't think that Emergency, you know, the fear of Emergency or arbitrary arrest ...kept the corrupt from doing whatever they were doing before...before the Emergency...they continued.21:25 Especially after the first couple of months…everybody knew...everything was sab chalta hai! 

21:34 [Kai] Were you released after elections had been announced or...

21:38 [VK] No no...I was released couple of months before elections because my colleagues especially...I also have friends in the profession so they they they were making life miserable for the Congress leaders. 21:57 Us ko kyo pakra hai? Us ko kyo pakra hai? So and then they they released me. In fact, that was the time I wanted to go back.... I said, 'what the hell! This is going to make my life miserable outside because my brother-in-law had come in22:14 and done that silly scarlet...act (NOTE: From 22:14 till Rajya Sabha is completely mumbled and unclear)­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­__________in Rajya Sabha' They made my life miserable. And I really was dying to get back... because there was no male member around that family ...I was the only one and they ...you had 22:38 a contingent of RAW, I B. Bansi Lal...the great Bansi Lal put defence military guys, you know, on motorcycles...they were all after me. So they made my...my father would come thinking that I'm troubled so psychologically, you know, boost you get. And he would go for a morning walk and 23:04 [???</span>UNCLEAR</u>] They would make your life miserable. They'd say, 'acha woh...why did he say hello to you?' So they made things terrible for you and since you are to somehow that 24 hours in a day you can't sleep through the all 24 hours...you go out and sit23:26 [<u>NOTE: the doorbell rings the moment VK specifies...and it's unclear</u>] Press Club there won't be anybody wanting to talk to you because they'll sit in the Press Club right in front of you. So the others guys are afraid. I was miserable… psychologically I was a broken man. --- [Kai: Yeah?] -- After they did .23:43 I'll tell I was a broken man why because ...and that's a riddle that I've not been able to resolve even to this day. I say it in a sense that, You're my neighbour and a friend of mine and you leave your jewellery because you're going out for let's say three months to Germany. You leave your precious jewels with me and say, 'Virendra please keep it.' I say, 'thik hai rakho hmmm.' I can approach that situation in two ways. Somebody will burgles the house and your jewels are stolen... 'aree baba dekho this is what happened...I'm sorry I lost it.' That's one answer when you are come. The other is that I have a moral responsibility ---[Kai interjects: to safeguards those]--- even if somebody taken it away along with that my own stuff is gone but never mind my stuff so my ...I ...I still do feel very strongly that morally I can't resolve this that...24:51 If they had beaten me up...tortured me...whether or not I may divulge ...vomit out some information which might harm somebody else... Swamy..you know...although I did not know his last attraction but I knew the modus operandi, and I had not predicted ..ability to do that...and this impression was found or strengthened further whenever we were in jail and you came...you were the new inmate25:25 as if 'hey how come you're here?' You'll say, 'look I was underground and that Mr Smith in whose I was hiding ...the police beat up his son and the son said, 'Ohh ohh he's there in my house'. So you had contempt for that fellow. You… Although the poor kid was beaten up so he couldn't help but we had to 25:52 But we had to go there with them because every, you know, every now and then ten days a new fellow will come. 25:59 that means the warrant was out for him and he was underground. And you'll say Aap kaise aye?" We'll all sit around and this is my name...Nothing else to do in jail so you ask the new inmate - how are things outside?- So how did you get arrested? He'll say ' I was hiding in so and so's house and his son was picked up by the police and they beat him up...they gave him two slaps.  And he said, Haan Uncle is there in my...' So you had that little contempt that you know on a ... and I still think that it was not a manly thing to do to rat on somebody even if you did it under torture --- [Kai: duress..] --- It's the same thing…whether or not...that that's is breaking me down portion especially when there were no support…nobody to help you out. After all talking with somebody, sharing your feelings sharing your agony..

---Jail Experience

Life in jail

--differences in rules on paper and ground reality

---provisions given in jail

---example , fire wood quota due and given- indicative of corruption

----not well cooked food—Chapatti and aloo subji

Rations being stolen

---Their treatment in Tihar jail probably better --- political prisoners

------Bareilly Jail

---Who were the other jailed inmates during Emergency

---no journalists

---lot of politicians

---D.P. Tripathi - now a member of Sharad Pawar Party United Sabha

The corrupt kept doing what they were doing before ‘75

----Vk’s Release

--VK released couple of months before the elections

help from friends

life post-jail difficult because of harassment.

---warrant out for Swamy – his stunt at Rajya Sabha while the last of the obituary was being read.

---VK bring trailed by RAW

--Bansi Lal

----psychological harassment

---People at Press Club would not talk VK because of surveillance.

VK as a broken man

Because of stories of known friends etc. betraying.

Ex, safe-keeping jewellery

--VK did not divulge information on Swamy or other out of a moral code of honour

--narrative of friends betraying. – Sons picked up by police and then tattling

----ratting out not manly thing to do.

---stress on VK

26:58 [Kai] Are you saying…you  you ..what you lost faith in humanity basically because you...

27:02 [VK] No no what will...I know my fellow human beings I know my ...even today I know that who who ...after all if you have a large body of friends and acquaintances, you have a fair idea who'll stand by you and who will not. I mean they might be all your friends but everybody ---[Kai: will not react the same way]----- same way so there are some people even if they are not very close to me still ask me for help as against those who they're very friendly with because they think this is the guy to go to ... maybe they're not wrong. But the fact is that it is very difficult even for a hardened criminal when given third degree not to divulge...that is the question. 27:54 I relate honour with the...I mean it's mistaken ...it's a probably old traditional sense of honour and dishonour. I say it on account of you somebody else should land in trouble. I still don't find it acceptable although I pose this question to my wife and my sister. I say, 'why would you do?' You say 'you neat us up we'll tell yo whatever.' I say,  'I can't take that' I say, 'I can't take this because they knew ..I told them myself.' The way..because the...she'd mentioned in the book - How three hours they kept me in a dark dingy this thing-- when Swamy disappeared. Where do you stay here? 

---on losing faith in humanity.

---not lost faith because VK understood human nature

----hard not to divulge information on torture

---VK’s conception of honour

---VK kept in dark for three hours

28:36 [Kai: In...near Khan Market...Amrita Shergill Marg.

28:39 [VK]: Oh! Nice address to have yaar. 

28:43 [Kai] : It's .. it's not a bungalow. It's a flat.  (...Hira Mahal)

28:45 [VK]: Oh! Those Hira Mahal. You know the story about Hira Mahal? 

28:51 [Kai]: Which story? We've been there since '76.

28:54 [VK]: Oh! That's the time it came up my dear boy (Note: at least I think VK said, 'My dear boy!')...and then you had ...you had 28:59 (Note: the incident VK refers to is completely unclear) went down the road in Kashyap Marg ….Patwan Singh --- [Kai: Yes, on the other side.] -- Yeah And Patwan in fact over dinner at his house, he said, 'how you wonder he brought Mrs Gandhi'. 29:10 Sure in this season you want this entire road to be like this? That's when the order was passed. Otherwise no such Hira Mahals would have come up on that road.

29:19 Hira Mahal is an exception there otherwise that's the only multi-storey building. ----[Kai: on Amrita Shergill Marg...There some more on on on Prithviraj Road]---Not on Amrita Shergill  but Amrita Shergill Marg this is the only building. 29:31 If we...I think..yes...this is the only one. 29:35 I know this...my ...Coomi's ....In fact, Subramanian Swamy's, you know daughter has a close relation there...also a very bright architect, Razia, lives there.

29:56 [Kai]: Han, he was the architect of the building ... Satish Grover ---- [VK: Yeah! Satish Grover]---He was the architect of the ----- [VK: He was the architect...okay okay...Satish, right].----0 (Kai: Yeah right that!) ---- [VK: So that's how he got that flat there] ---- Yeah ----- [VK: How many flats are there?] ---- I think sixteen or so-----[VK: Thirty?]  ---- sixteen or so.----[VK: Bus! That's it!]---- yes ----- [VK: There too large flats. I haven't been to the ...that means about 3000 sq. ft.] ----- Yea, they all are....  ===> Recorder switched off...thus incomplete sentence.

---on Kai’s place of residence

---Hira Mahal

Kashyap Marg ….Patwan Singh

Mrs Indira Gandhi being invited into the house

Coomi Kappor’s relative living thereabouts


Satish Grover

On flats

Interview Ends.